![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
liam_on_linuxI think the more significant long-term question is to ask which of the various Gtk2-based desktops are going to successfully transition to other toolkits.
Apparently, LXDE is switching to Qt:
http://blog.lxde.org/?p=1013
Which leaves the question of how easy it would be for Xfce and Maté to move.
Maté is GNOME 2, of course. GNOME stands for GNU Network Object Model Environment. It's a collection of components - objects - interacting over CORBA. I don't know much about its underlying usage of Gtk, which really isn't "GIMP Toolkit" any more but is now "GNOME toolkit".
XFCE once stood for XForms Common Environment, although later it was ported from XForms (a rather elderly, simple API/widget set) to Gtk. Since it's been ported once, it *probably* doesn't depend too deeply and closely on Gtk, but that's a guess.
Perberos did talk about a possible move to Gtk3 long ago, but Maté has really only gathered momentum since then:
http://archive.is/0rUi
This is my half-assed effort at translating the Spanish part:
<<
Many people ask me: if the goal is to port MATE to Gtk3, then wouldn't it be better to just take the GNOME 3 programs and include them, as they are already based on GTK3?
The truth is that many applications have been ported to GNOME3 Gtk3, breaking Gtk2 compatibility. Besides that, they have been modified to make them easier to use: "easy" and "cleaner" in terms of usability means giving them dumber interfaces, which greatly limits intermediate and advanced users, as well as those who are used to the Gtk2 versions.
Also, if we only use GNOME 3 applications, then this fork of GNOME2 would be meaningless. But I hope that everyone can choose which applications they want to install.
It's a complicated discussion and does not lead anywhere, so let's avoid it.
>>
He might change his mind.
I think he has good points.
It's quite easy to put both Maté and GNOME 3 on the same install of Ubuntu - now Maté has renamed all the packages, there are no clashes and they co-exist cleanly.
His point about dumbed-down apps is a good one. Some GNOME 3 apps look near-identical to their GNOME 2 versions, but most have no menu bar any more, just a single one-word menu with all the options collated onto that. I have mixed feelings about this: yes, it's simpler. As an old Acorn RISC OS user, I am perfectly comfortable with apps that have a single global menu, just divided into sections - there's less hunting around.
But GNOME 3 apps still have a menu bar, and that being so, I don't see any benefit.
Some apps have dropped features. That's a general trend of GNOME development and I don't like it. Yes, simplification is good, generally, but wholesale feature removal isn't the best way to do it. Making a fresh start (a la iOS or Android) is better, I suspect.
Bottom line:
I think Gtk2 is dead. I suspect Maté and Maté's developers are both too wedded to it and that means a vast project: the whole GNOME 2 desktop, plus all its applets, plus all of Gtk2. I don't think that can be kept going, but a move to Gtk3 would, as he implies, remove much of the desktop's reason for existing. So I think Maté will stay on Gtk2 and eventually die.
For a flexible, modular, componentised desktop that you can reconfigure how you want - top panel, bottom panel, both, menu launcher, dock launcher, both, etc. - then Xfce 3 is a better bet. GNOME 3 does not try to be or do this and I doubt it ever will. GNOME Classic and Cinnamon don't try to be either, they just try to reproduce the default Windows-style taskbar-and-start-menu experience.
Xfce is looking at adopting Gtk3:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTM5OTA
But Gtk3 is not yet stable and each release (3.4, 3.6, 3.8…) has apparently had major revisions - 3rd-party users are struggling.
http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.desktop.xfce.devel.version4/20865
Other projects are allegedly evaluating Gtk3 and deciding "not yet":
http://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?id=7598
As I said above, Gtk really is the GNOME Toolkit now, not the GIMP Toolkit. Gtk3 is the GNOME 3 Toolkit and it's changing so much with each release that it's not good for anyone else -- yet. GNOME 3 is still young and maturing. It has a long way to go.
So for now, I think Gtk2 has a modest future. Lots of projects use it and they won't all move to Gtk3 any time soon. It will survive for a few years yet and it is still safe enough to choose and deploy Gtk2-based solutions. Merely being based on Gtk2 is not reason enough to avoid any product.
But in time, yes, I think Gtk2 will die.
For now, though, Gtk3 is not mature or stable enough for widespread adoption among Gtk2 users. This is because Gtk3 is part of GNOME 3 and GNOME 3 itself is not yet mature or stable enough for widespread adoption. It may never be.
Perhaps, in a few years, GNOME 3 will survive, grow up, mature and settle down into something stable and consistent. In that case, Gtk3 will too. If GNOME 3 dies, then Gtk3 may well split off and itself become mature and stable, and then, the many Gtk2 projects will migrate to it.
My impression is, though, that it's too soon to move to it yet. Of the notable Linux desktops using Gtk2, I suspect that Maté will soldier on with Gtk2 and never make the move. As long as Gtk2 is supported, that will be fine, but eventually, Gtk2 will die and if it hasn't moved on by then, Maté will die with it. LXDE will switch to Qt and merge with the Razor-QT project. Xfce will switch to Gtk3 but probably not for a year or two at the earliest - it's a much slower-moving project than GNOME 2 was or GNOME 3 is. As such, if you want a customisable desktop like GNOME 2 was, my recommendation would be Xfce, and if you just want something simple, lightweight, clean and vaguely Windows-like, go with LXDE.
If all you want is a vaguely Windows-like window manager and you don't want desktop icons and file managers and all that, then IceWM and Fvw95 are still around and then all this stuff won't matter to you. :¬)
Apparently, LXDE is switching to Qt:
http://blog.lxde.org/?p=1013
Which leaves the question of how easy it would be for Xfce and Maté to move.
Maté is GNOME 2, of course. GNOME stands for GNU Network Object Model Environment. It's a collection of components - objects - interacting over CORBA. I don't know much about its underlying usage of Gtk, which really isn't "GIMP Toolkit" any more but is now "GNOME toolkit".
XFCE once stood for XForms Common Environment, although later it was ported from XForms (a rather elderly, simple API/widget set) to Gtk. Since it's been ported once, it *probably* doesn't depend too deeply and closely on Gtk, but that's a guess.
Perberos did talk about a possible move to Gtk3 long ago, but Maté has really only gathered momentum since then:
http://archive.is/0rUi
This is my half-assed effort at translating the Spanish part:
<<
Many people ask me: if the goal is to port MATE to Gtk3, then wouldn't it be better to just take the GNOME 3 programs and include them, as they are already based on GTK3?
The truth is that many applications have been ported to GNOME3 Gtk3, breaking Gtk2 compatibility. Besides that, they have been modified to make them easier to use: "easy" and "cleaner" in terms of usability means giving them dumber interfaces, which greatly limits intermediate and advanced users, as well as those who are used to the Gtk2 versions.
Also, if we only use GNOME 3 applications, then this fork of GNOME2 would be meaningless. But I hope that everyone can choose which applications they want to install.
It's a complicated discussion and does not lead anywhere, so let's avoid it.
>>
He might change his mind.
I think he has good points.
It's quite easy to put both Maté and GNOME 3 on the same install of Ubuntu - now Maté has renamed all the packages, there are no clashes and they co-exist cleanly.
His point about dumbed-down apps is a good one. Some GNOME 3 apps look near-identical to their GNOME 2 versions, but most have no menu bar any more, just a single one-word menu with all the options collated onto that. I have mixed feelings about this: yes, it's simpler. As an old Acorn RISC OS user, I am perfectly comfortable with apps that have a single global menu, just divided into sections - there's less hunting around.
But GNOME 3 apps still have a menu bar, and that being so, I don't see any benefit.
Some apps have dropped features. That's a general trend of GNOME development and I don't like it. Yes, simplification is good, generally, but wholesale feature removal isn't the best way to do it. Making a fresh start (a la iOS or Android) is better, I suspect.
Bottom line:
I think Gtk2 is dead. I suspect Maté and Maté's developers are both too wedded to it and that means a vast project: the whole GNOME 2 desktop, plus all its applets, plus all of Gtk2. I don't think that can be kept going, but a move to Gtk3 would, as he implies, remove much of the desktop's reason for existing. So I think Maté will stay on Gtk2 and eventually die.
For a flexible, modular, componentised desktop that you can reconfigure how you want - top panel, bottom panel, both, menu launcher, dock launcher, both, etc. - then Xfce 3 is a better bet. GNOME 3 does not try to be or do this and I doubt it ever will. GNOME Classic and Cinnamon don't try to be either, they just try to reproduce the default Windows-style taskbar-and-start-menu experience.
Xfce is looking at adopting Gtk3:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTM5OTA
But Gtk3 is not yet stable and each release (3.4, 3.6, 3.8…) has apparently had major revisions - 3rd-party users are struggling.
http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.desktop.xfce.devel.version4/20865
Other projects are allegedly evaluating Gtk3 and deciding "not yet":
http://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?id=7598
As I said above, Gtk really is the GNOME Toolkit now, not the GIMP Toolkit. Gtk3 is the GNOME 3 Toolkit and it's changing so much with each release that it's not good for anyone else -- yet. GNOME 3 is still young and maturing. It has a long way to go.
So for now, I think Gtk2 has a modest future. Lots of projects use it and they won't all move to Gtk3 any time soon. It will survive for a few years yet and it is still safe enough to choose and deploy Gtk2-based solutions. Merely being based on Gtk2 is not reason enough to avoid any product.
But in time, yes, I think Gtk2 will die.
For now, though, Gtk3 is not mature or stable enough for widespread adoption among Gtk2 users. This is because Gtk3 is part of GNOME 3 and GNOME 3 itself is not yet mature or stable enough for widespread adoption. It may never be.
Perhaps, in a few years, GNOME 3 will survive, grow up, mature and settle down into something stable and consistent. In that case, Gtk3 will too. If GNOME 3 dies, then Gtk3 may well split off and itself become mature and stable, and then, the many Gtk2 projects will migrate to it.
My impression is, though, that it's too soon to move to it yet. Of the notable Linux desktops using Gtk2, I suspect that Maté will soldier on with Gtk2 and never make the move. As long as Gtk2 is supported, that will be fine, but eventually, Gtk2 will die and if it hasn't moved on by then, Maté will die with it. LXDE will switch to Qt and merge with the Razor-QT project. Xfce will switch to Gtk3 but probably not for a year or two at the earliest - it's a much slower-moving project than GNOME 2 was or GNOME 3 is. As such, if you want a customisable desktop like GNOME 2 was, my recommendation would be Xfce, and if you just want something simple, lightweight, clean and vaguely Windows-like, go with LXDE.
If all you want is a vaguely Windows-like window manager and you don't want desktop icons and file managers and all that, then IceWM and Fvw95 are still around and then all this stuff won't matter to you. :¬)
